Hey, I was wondering, I was looking through your archives, and I saw some games. Do you know if there is a mirror to bigbluecup.com? I want to get their games but it is down.

cure to the common cold and duty and beyond if possible

The moment I saw the screenie, I knew it was cactus. Somehow the style is easily recognisable...

Thanks. On the actual game, it is really hard for me. Is there a time limit on how fast you can use the homing bombs?

Time limit? You can launch them if you hit the button in sync with the beat.

Nice one! I really like the clean look and the bossdesign...very easy on the eyes.

Another effortlessly awesome release by Cactus. Much fun.

Excellent :) Took me a while to get into this one, but once I got into it I hit a nice pace. My only problem is that I keep running out of time.

that's my main problem with cactus' games.
takes too long to get into them and i can never bother. I just give up after 5 minutes and i never really feel like i miss anything.

gustav, i know what you mean. i don't understand why he doesn't spend more time to polish a game, instead of releasing some rush job which is supposed to be impressive just because he didn't spend very much time on it. seems pretty sloppy to me

@gustav and ano
I guess you kids don't get the design philosophy behind those games. I think his goal is to come up with a stylish and working game in a set amount of time. Has nothing to do with a "rush job", more an artistic challenge. But you two probably don't care much about art, do ya?

what?
while his games are always pleasant to both watch and listen to i don't see why this should make the gameplay suffer.
it's a good thing that you understand so much about TEH ART so that no one else has to, though.

Dammit, I hate how some people who boast about games being art have to have such an attitude about it.

Like it makes them a sophisticated individual compared to the "rubes" who play the games for fun and don't think a second thought beyond that.

@gustav, bless you for even putting in 5 minutes! I mean, come on, what more could be asked of you?[/snark]

It's certainly "fair enough" that you don't like cactus' games. But you have to admit that's not a lot of effort you're putting in.

Bill

that's a pretty bad argument. why should i put effort into something i don't enjoy? i don't get paid to play games so i play what i like and pass on the things i dislike.

why do i have to be an expert on shootan gaem to take part of this blissful art experiment?

i'd probably be a huge fan of cactus' if he only made the games a bit friendlier. i love shooters, but i'd like to get eased into something, not find myself dying 3.5 seconds into the game and going "wait, what?".
maybe i just suck, though.
still, immense kudos to cactus for being able to make something as sweet looking and aparently complex as this in 12 hours, but yeah, i'd like a less steep learning curve... someone wanna bite my balls off for that opinion?

*nibble*

You talking to me, konjak? I surely didn't write or say anything about being a "sophisticated individual" or anything...My point is that I've seen too many gamers who seem to have a problem distinguishing between commercial games and freeware games with their often experimental nature. This "if I don't get it in 5 minutes, then it's not worth it" approach isn't exactly what I would call open minded...

Hey, slang, maybe you should stop being such a condescending ass.

@Poe
Nah, I don't think so. Being a "condescending ass" in this situation is quite alright as long as one sticks to the truth;-)

Well I thought the game was quite good. Fantastic art direction, if a little tough.

Ugh, the lack of colors really blinded my eyes, even after I inverted them.

It didn't look appealing until I noticed it had some whole rhythm-beat system. I could use more games like that to help me playing bass.

I never thought of Cactus's speed of releases as a specific challenge. I do wonder if he sets himself a time limit, but I prefer to think that he simply works on them until they're finished, or rather, that that particular idea doesn't need any more time and that it's time to move onto something else.

Either way, it's hardly important.

The sharp learning curve isn't really a cause of a rushed job--it's there in his most polished games. (I /still/ suck at Clean Asia)

I actually enjoy having to figure out how play his games without prior instructions, though, and it's something that Cactus has obviously been interested in since 'Illegal Communication'.

I wrote a really long explanation on here, but lost it because my browser crashed. Instead, I'll just do it the short way:

Make the Game Fun for the Player, not the Designer or Computer. - Sid Meier
Taken from here (point 19)

But “failing” and “being discouraged” just aren’t fun.
(Same site, core idea from explanation of point 20)

Make the First Player Action Painfully Obvious. - Noah Falstein
(Rule 26 of that same link. Explanation on there is needed to understand this)

Game Play Comes First
(Rule 47)

That one, btw, is something I addressed in the post I made before the browser crash. If you neglect game play and the fun factor in a game in order to make it "art", you're better off making a movie instead.

What I'm saying with these things, is that people play games to relax and have some fun, maybe even have a bit of a challenge once they get the hang of a game. They don't play games for the philosophy behind it, or because "it is art". That goes for any games, commercial, indie and freeware.

The issue Gustav mentioned, about the getting killed just moments after starting a game, is a design deadsin that should be avoided at all costs. You have to give the player the chance to get used to the controls and the way the character responds before sending enemies his way, or you'll suck the fun right out of the game and leave the player frustrated.

Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about Cactus all the time. Sure, he's got an impressive amount of games on his name and works fast, but his games aren't exactly Moruga 2 or Vacant Ark. They lack the polish and fun those games have, and sin to quite a few very basic design rules (not even rules, but more something a bit of logical reasoning can deduct already). His art style is unique, sure, but lacks polish, and never really innovates over itself. It's the same thing over every time. I say bring on something fresh, new and fun, instead. Kenta Cho and Jon Mak got the right idea. Cactus... nope.

@kon-tiki
While the rules you mentioned are fine and all, they do sound more like suggestions. Many classics, especially from the 8 and 16 bit days, didn't exactly follow these rules and still turned out to be quite good. Those rules also completely ignore that there are groups of gamers who don't have a problem with dodging crazy amounts of bullets while replaying a stage over and over.
I also like the idea that designers of freeware games don't have to worry about satysfying any clients/publishers and are pretty much free to do whatever they want. If you don't like it, don't download it...it's not that you paid money for it, seriously.
Imho freeware games should explore new ideas and designs outside of the mainstream gaming market. And yeah, that does include the possibility of coming up with some freaky art and philosophy. I can have fun with a game even if it isn't 100% polished.

I think if you approach a lot of Cactus stuff expecting fully formed games then yeah, you're going to come away seriously disappointed with them.

A lot of them do seem to be iterative designs, evolutionary rather than revolutionary - constantly building on concepts though, is a good thing surely?

Admittedly when you throw this much against the wall, it's not always going to stick. Protoganda did little for me, although the aesthetic gave me the inner jiggles, OTOH Burn The Trash hit every single spot bang on the nail for me - in visuals, concept and playability. It may not be "polished" but it's one sweet sugar rush adrenaline flowing piece of game that knocks the stuffing out of a lot of other games I've played this year.

So he breaks some rules along the line, that's what rules are for.

It either works or it doesn't - but at least he's trying and thinking out of the box.

I can only applaud that.

Freeware games do that. Take Kenta Cho, Jon Mak, the Masq team, Konjak (I'm looking at you, Chalk) and many others. Cactus isn't one of those. His games usually are the same thing over, with a change here or there. I can't find anything innovative, new or fresh in them. Games that don't give anything new or innovative can be just as fun too. Take Buster's, Pixel's, Konjak's (I'm looking at you, Noitu Love and Tripline) and many others' games. They're not really innovative or introduce something new, but they're pretty damn well fun to play, and all are fully polished.

Personally, if I can choose between an unpolished and a polished game that do the same old, tried concept, I'll go with the polished ones, no matter if I pay for them or not. That means I'm going for other schmups than those from Cactus. I really enjoyed Mogura 2, Vacant Ark, Warning Forever (ok, that one is quite innovative), but this one, and the previous ones from Cactus... They leave me cold. There's nothing new, innovative, experimental about them, and it lacks the polish to stand out in the crowd of tried concepts, so meh to that.

Oh, and I forgot... Those rules are mainly about a game having FUN. Telling people off for saying a game isn't fun because they don't "get it" hasn't got anything to do with games wanting to break through conventional rules, but if that goes at the cost of FUN in the game, then it's just not worth the effort.

Along with that, you're right that some people like dodging a crazy amount of bullets (in a game), but you should allow the player to get the hang of this dodging and not toss him in the middle of an ongoing firing already.

On top of that, if somebody's not too keen on these bullet hells, as they seem to be called, it's not right to tell them they "don't get the philosophy behind the game" and that "it's art" and condescending on him because it's not his kind of schmup. It not only makes you look like fool, but also makes people think it's a game for condescending know-it-alls, which won't do the game itself any good either.

That's what I've always enjoyed about Cactus' material actually.. the fact that he does break rules. You never quite know what to expect because he does think outside of the box.

Most devs either don't care to or are too scared that they won't please an audience, which is precisely what makes Cactus such a special developer in my eyes.

Kon-Tiki: Do you make a special effort to sound like a total twat, or is it just accidental?

Agree Mosh, I like the fact you never quite know what's going to come next.

Tiki, we obviously want and get different things from games - that's cool, keeps the world turning and discussion ongoing and all that, but I think you're being really unfair to Cactus saying "there's nothing new, innovative, experimental about them" because, well, many things you could level at the guy but that's not one of them.

also @Kon-tiki

I do disagree with quite a few things you've said (regarding fun, preconceptions of what a player needs/wants, etc., etc.) but to prevent this from turning into a 'games as art' debate--which tend to go down the gurgler, I'll just agree to disagree.

On the point that Cactus's art style is unique, but lacks polish, and does not innovate on itself, I couldn't disagree more.
His most recent games have much more flair than his older ones. Protoganda, Burn the trash, and even small experiments such as MSOIDS are all things I get very excited about.

Sure, they all have Cactus's stamp--and it's credit to him, not a con. Similarily, I wouldn't want Kenta Cho's games to look anything other than a Kenta Cho game (which, by the way, as far as art style is concerned, are much less fresh, new, or fun, in my opinion)

On the aspect of gameplay, yes, he doesn't go out of his way to please the spoilt gamer. But it's quite clear that a lot of people love his games, so he clearly appeals to a certain audience, and that people enjoy them.

His games also are going to rub a lot of people the wrong way, for sure. But it's not like he's trying to appeal to a mass, mainstream audience. For those that don't enjoy it, (similarily, for those that don't like bullet hell, etc.) I'm not going to tell anyone that they simply don't get it. Nor am I trying to (and am hesistant to do so) put Cactus up on a platform of artistic experimentation in any way.

But I support what he's doing, and he is certainly doing something very neat. I can't wait to see what he continues to create.

Kon-tiki, I think your twisting my words a little bit too much.

"It not only makes you look like fool, but also makes people think it's a game for condescending know-it-alls, which won't do the game itself any good either."

Believe me, there is no connection between me and the game. My opinion doesn't do the game neither good nor bad. Pretty freaky logic here...
I like cactus' shmups because they are brutaly difficult with visuals that are bizarre and sometimes even (deliberately?) ugly. Burn the Trash and Akuchizoku being very good examples for that. Yes, that's my idea of FUN and I guess I'm not alone:-)

To make things clear, I was pretty much telling Slang to give Gustav some slack, when it comes to the "games are art" stuff, and the cutting people who don't like Cactus' games some slack, instead of telling them they "don't get it". It's plain disrespectful to others with a different opinion.

As far as the having had too much of hearing about Cactus' games, that's a personal opinion, as stated each time. To me, it comes over as the same game every four days. I'm sure there're people out there that love them, and so much the better for them. For me, it's just getting a noise overload due to all the releases, and gives me the impression he has some conveyor belt machine making them, instead of putting thought and effort in each one. That's just how it comes over to me, though.

@Slang:

I guess you kids don't get the design philosophy behind those games. I think his goal is to come up with a stylish and working game in a set amount of time. Has nothing to do with a "rush job", more an artistic challenge. But you two probably don't care much about art, do ya?

How did I twist that? You said he doesn't get the game because he didn't have fun playing it, and you said the reason why he doesn't have fun playing it, is because he doesn't care about the art in it.

I said people play a game to have fun, not to watch art. If you have fun with Cactus' games, good for you. No reason to be so rude to others who don't have fun with them, though.

My point is that I've seen too many gamers who seem to have a problem distinguishing between commercial games and freeware games with their often experimental nature. This "if I don't get it in 5 minutes, then it's not worth it" approach isn't exactly what I would call open minded...

What's the difference between playing a commercial game and a freeware one then? Your first and foremost intention for playing a commercial game is having fun, and a freeware one is to watch art and experimentation, according to what you said there. If someone doesn't have fun within the first 5 minutes and goes off to do something he does enjoy, he's a close-minded tightwad that doesn't understand games, according to you.

That's what I was talking about, not about whether or not you yourself have fun with Cactus' games. You're allowed to have fun with them without being condescended upon and being insulted, just as much as others are allowed to not enjoy them without being condescended upon and being insulted.

@Kon-tiki
Complaining about a "rush job" in a game you got for free without putting in any real effort to understand the concept is pretty short sighted and results in a similarly direct reaction, even from people who just happen to like those "rushed jobs". Where exactly is your problem here?
Imo art can be listened to, watched and played with...but I guess that's just me. The difference between playing a commercial game and a freeware one are the expectations. Rather similar to what I expect from a Hollywood blockbuster film on one hand and an obscure indie shortfilm on the other.

@Kon-tiki

It's quite clear that you just want different things from your games than some of the other people here.

"What I'm saying with these things, is that people play games to relax and have some fun, maybe even have a bit of a challenge once they get the hang of a game. They don't play games for the philosophy behind it, or because "it is art". That goes for any games, commercial, indie and freeware."

That statement is false, because I do play games simply for the philosophy behind them, or because it has artistic qualities. Sure, sometimes I play to relax, but sometimes I play solely for the challenge. Fun and challenge aren't mutually exlusive. You can have both.

"Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about Cactus all the time. Sure, he's got an impressive amount of games on his name and works fast, but his games aren't exactly Moruga 2 or Vacant Ark. They lack the polish and fun those games have, and sin to quite a few very basic design rules (not even rules, but more something a bit of logical reasoning can deduct already)."

I've had more "fun" with Cactus' games than either of the games you mentioned.

"[...]cutting people who don't like Cactus' games some slack, instead of telling them they "don't get it". It's plain disrespectful to others with a different opinion."

Obviously, you're not the target audience for cactus' games, so how can you say you DO get it? I don't like RPG games at all, but I don't claim to "get" them, either. Obviously I don't "get" them, because if I did figure out what made them fun, I'd play them.

And now for Cactus's next game... Blogosphere mind-control!

Cactus does something different for each and every game. That's the reason why I enjoy looking forward to his releases, good or bad. They've all been appealing to certain types of people anyway.

I've never actually seen this amount of comments before on Indygamer.

The great thing about Cactus is he's willing to experiment, and that includes his graphical style, I think. Like Oddbob said, not everything works out well, but each game he puts out plays very differently from the last. They may all be based around the shmup/bullet hell theme, but the actual internal mechanics always gives a very different feel to each game.

Not all of his design decisions appeal to me, but I can definitely respect them.

@Kon-Tiki - Surely Clean Asia had something new in it? It's quite alright not to like his games, but I disagree with you that they are all the same.

@all - I've heard similar things said about Kenta Cho's games, that they're unfinished. Maybe, maybe not. I like to consider both his and cactus' games more "vignettes", expressions of a single idea or two.

So it seems we've decided in this discussion not to go down the "art" path. I'm fine with that, it's just a term. So let's compare games to movies. At what point should you walk out of a movie? 1 minute? 5 minutes? 1/2 an hour? Up to the individual of course, whether they even care if they miss something or not.

Bill

Clean Asia's the only one I never could give a try. I tried downloading it from Cactus' site, but there was no link to it... I couldn't get it anywhere on there. Can't say anything about that one.

I think the longest (far longer than 5 minutes, mind you) i played of any of cactus' game was Akuchizoku(?), because i really wanted to know what happened next after the fantastic intro sequence, even though it's the game of his that i've found visually the least interesting, but i digress.

I still kept dying. Not because there were too many bullets on the screen but because the controls felt downright sloppy. I have no problems dodging bullets in bullet hell games (I remember snickering at the highscores being posted in TIGsource comment section on Kenta Cho's Titania, since i was totally pwning that game to bits :@!1!).
But cactus' games never have a great flow to them IMHO, except for maybe Burn the Trash, which made up for it with some simple but great and effective mechanics (longest i've played a cactus game simply for fun).

I agree with Kon-Tiki that many of cactus' games feel the same, because the controls, beyond the difference in mechanics and ways of attack, do not change. It's never the pixel perfect precision that i've come to expect from my favorite shmups, but just feels kind of awkward and unprecise (not terrible, just not never spot on). I bet it'd work if i spent a few hours learning it, but i don't want to invest that time, when, as soon as i start up the game i get peppered with fast moving bullets.
I know, this might just be one of his ways of thinking outside the box, i just hope he doesn't hide behind that to make personal progress. It's sad his games aren't more open to an audience other than the hardcore shmup player, since they've all got a lot of interesting things to offer, on many levels.

My main gripe with his games are that, since i'm not good at playing them, I need to learn the patterns of EVERYTHING. There's little chance for me to get my skill up since i get molested as soon as i try anything different from dodging bullets and shooting. I'd rather play shmups to test my skill than having to learn every single detail and make small progressions every time i play- definitely my biggest complaint about Akuchizoku.

Ok, I'm done now, i have a few more things but i can't bother.

[/rant]

Minubeat isn't especially hard. It's not a shmup, it's a rhythm action game. Hold down Z, press X in time with the beat to help a bit, and switch to C if you get overwhelmed (useful on the boss at the end).

Good fun, but pretty easy once you've got the hang of it.

Cactus is a god, if you all don't stop complaining, he will smite you.

"...I still kept dying. Not because there were too many bullets on the screen but because the controls felt downright sloppy."

I kept dying because the screen shake from explosions put me off to the point of finding the game unplayable.

Hmm good thread. I can't agree with Kon-Tiki's point about cactus just tweaking a few things and releasing a new game. He's more like iteration games and Kenta Cho - get an idea, make a prototype, give it some art style, refine it a bit, slap ahigh score table on it and release it. Saying it lacks polish is obvious, but I don't think anyone is holding these games up as polished gems. It's easy to become tired of hearing about cactus games because he releases so many and they look similar because he has his own art style.

Personally I think that it's good to put all new releases up, so if you're tired of hearing about cactus... don't read the posts :)

I'm not a hardcore shmup player and I happen to love his games and I don't think I'm on my own there either. I just know how to appreciate most genres, whether I'm especially good at them or not (and I'm not especially good at bullet hell games).

To me, the main point is that I find cactus' catalogue interesting. The fastness with which he releases games is something that I think is more good than bad. I tend to think it has gotten to the stage that if he stopped the flow, people would actually start complaining.

I think the fact that people argue a game to the point where it becomes a philosophical debate is pretty interesting.

--My 2 cents--

From my limited experience, I've learned that sound and art style can add a lot to a game. They can even make the experience, but under the hood of that fancy hot rod there should be a good game mechanism. I think under the hood of most of Cati's games is a pretty solid engine. A fun toy, though rarely fully realized, a fun toy none the less.

On the other hand, there are plenty of things in the gameplay of most games that could be tweaked to make the experience of the player more smooth, and no one can argue that that is a bad thing.

I've played very few games and made none, that couldn't benefit with a little clean up work in the gameplay department.

So, to say that Cactus could tweak his gameplay and innovate more is a given. Every game could use the same.

If the end product evokes happiness in some people then the creation of the game was worth the time. If the game makes some people angry then that is even funnier to me.

wow! Cactus you created a stur! You should come out with ten games in a week, all the EXACT SAME with only small variations in each,. perhaps sound of sprite or pattern,. an make it REALLY hard not to die in the first 3 seconds! and put the polish back under the sink,. and have no explination at all not even the keys,. have the keys change AS you are playing,. screw the monkeys! They don't deserve games as great as what is free on the net today,. rememeber when you had to put your shoes on if you wanted a bit of the flashing beeping and action,. put your shoes on and load your pockets with quarters? You give them new games for free and they bitch about how nice you are. On the bright side; the monkeys will kill their planet soon and we can all go home,. . peace!

Looks like someone forgot to take his prozac.

See, the thing is, if someone doesn't want people bitching about their game, then they don't put it up. It's as simple as that, and no matter what some people aren't going to like it. It's not our fault some people can't deal with it. The "monkeys"? Did you just escape from a mental ward? Because I wouldn't really consider someone who doesn't like a non-original game to be a monkey who is killing the world.
Dumbass.

It's not as Cactus makes his games have a extremely long intro, no explanation of controls, only for you to die in the first 3 seconds. No. Most of his games are quick to start up, and quick to get into. If you die, you find yourself back into gameplay almost instantly. Having an entire section just for some people to get used to the controls seems a waste of time personally, when you can spend endless 3 seconds perfecting pressing the left key.

After 5 minutes, you get to learn how to press the right key.

Great game. I'm enjoying working out how to get a higher score when there's a 1 minute time limit!

I think the difficulty level is just right. Sure casual players won't get it, but who cares. This is a game for people who enjoy shooters and have the patience and time to learn how to play it. If you want games to tell you exactly how to play them, get a Wii. Cactus' games involve some learning and discovering for yourself.