Dude.. firstly I think you're mistaking me for Tim (I don't post here much as opposed to Tim being the owner of the blog and posting here like a few times a day give or take) and secondly I'm sure Tim can answer this himself but I really think you've mistaken his methods.

1. You'll find many that disagree with you.

2. Why are you here?

3. If you are referring to me.. well umm.. ok than, although again you've got it wrong anyways.

Personally I prefer this place. I ain't so keen on many games Tigsource features and the sometimes crazy debates that occur. This site just seems more easy going.

I second the above post.

I third it. Don't listen to the 4channers, this place is much more thorough and nice.

The TIGsource forums is a really nice place though.

Anyway, I like both sites.

I find most of these comments a bit silly. And I like both TIGSource and Independent Gaming so much that the eternal, blasted mediator in me is threatening to reveal itself.

Infact, I just spewed out a page worth of lovey-dovey words preaching love between all indy gaming websites, but have erased it as I think you could all be spared that, haha.

But yes, basically, I love these two sites. I hate internet drama, with a passion. I /don’t/ want to see this happen here. I’m not sure if I’m the only one, or if it’s just a illusion, but, I’m seeing a trend towards, well, shitty comments.

So, yes. TIGSource. Independent Gaming. Two different (nice!) things. Not in competition. Actually compliment each other quite well. 'defected'?? What is this, angsty web loyalties? Ack! Just.. ugh!

I’d much rather hear people’s thoughts about the games, rather than fruitless comparisons of websites...
So... I'm doing it again, haha, I'll stop here.


As for this one, it’s a little ironic, but I don’t think the game is taking /enough/ influence from cave story to warrant the title. ‘Cave story’ just isn’t the feel I’m getting at all, here. And judging from the ‘tunics’, it’s going to be more of a ‘several incongruent extreme areas’ game, as opposed to the, well, incredibly congruent world that cave story presents. I suppose I’m reading a bit too much into it at this point, but this game would benefit a lot from a mere title change, I feel!

I'm the one who posted the comment at '11/27/2007 03:33:00 AM'

Just wanted to state I don't dislike Tigsource. I just don't find myself wanting to go there all that much partially because of the reasons I stated. Also I find some of the game entry write ups a bit too 'reviewy' and I don't like reviews myself. Prefer some screenshots, a brief description and I'll try the game myself if I feel like it rather than rely on someone elses opinion.

Group hug?

let's navel gaze some more first.

That's more like it. A game that doesn't visually copy Cave Story. I'll look forward to this one.

More indie gaming sites = good for me and good for you!

TIGSource is far superior, has the best articles and editors, plus a thriving forum fan base.

Tim should die or something.

Litagano Motscoud!

I don't like reviews that involve Derek's penis, so I stay on TIGSource instead, as Tim isn't obsessed with his genitals.

Aside from that, the news on TIGSource more often than not is either irrelevant (to me) or old news from here and the reviews on here are more to the point and less opinionated, so I prefer this place. The array of games displayed does seem to be pretty much the same on both sites, though, and is skipping over quite a few indie dev. communities, which I personally find a bit of a shame.

I think there's only one person here who's obsessed with my penis, Raf!









...meet me in the TIGSource private forums? *wink*

Tigsource doesn't post news about my game *sobs*
Indygamer does *joys*

Cave Story Wannabe...Sounds awesome.

Continuing the point made by kon-tiki, I much prefer Tim's blog to TIGSource because, for one, Tim doesn't think casual swearing, crudeness and blasphemy is funny.

Now, I'm not a prude, or religious. I just see that sort of thing as a childish attempt at getting a rise out of adults. It's a cry for attention — the kind of behavior most people have outgrown by the time they leave high school. It's not funny, it's pathetic and tiresome.

I enjoy reading about independent games WITHOUT the constant exhibitionism on the part of the writers. So it's Independent Gaming all the way for me.

Keep up the great work!

If you want to see high profile stuff there's always Joystiq or Kotaku. The reason I read indygamer and TIGSource is for the stuff that isn't high profile.

Begun the flamewar has.

By the way - why does it have to be one blog or the other? I enjoy reading both. =)

I do too, but one is better than the other.

And that last anon guy up there hit the nail on the head!

"I enjoy reading both."
I even enjoy reading both at the same time! :)

*tear*....

"I enjoy reading both."

LOL NO U DONT IDORT

Kon-Tiki, you went through all those posts to get that? WHY?

We've got two great websites covering most of all the latest happenings in this magical realm of indie games. Why complain, guise?

Also, COCKS!

"...the kind of behavior most people have outgrown by the time they leave high school...pathetic and tiresome."

Interesting... a lot of people say the same thing about video games! I wonder what you think of them?

In other news, Raf is doing google searches for my penis. :D

me too, Derek... me too.

"I don't like reviews that involve Derek's penis, so I stay on TIGSource instead, as Tim isn't obsessed with his genitals."

Did no-one else notice the freudian slip here? :D

i like both TIG source and indygamer blogs, but i really like indygamer because it generally focuses evenly on smaller projects as well as big ones, whereas TIG source tends to focus more on bigger projects. in fact, i owe a lot of my success on past projects, like merry gear solid, on indygamer, as they're generally too small to be picked up by sites like TIG source until they've passed the indygamer litmus test. but like i said, i read and support both websites and i'm glad there's some focus on projects that aren't braid and noitu love and gish 2 or whatever.

to get back on track though, i can't say i'm too big of a fan of the art style (...i know i'm setting myself up for something here...), they're clean, but i think the artist is trying too hard to cram too much detail into such small sprites, and it leaves them looking really grainy. with that said though, i'm looking forward to seeing the gameplay video.

Now, now, has there ever been a single Noitu 2 post there?

Anyway, on topic, I think without that name to the game it wouldn't make me think of Cave Story from those screens, really.

I love the fact that a post originally about a very mediocre GM prod has turned into a full-on TIGSource Vs Indygamer debate :)

My 2p? Well, Indygamer has been far more supportive of my little discmag project than TIGS, so Tim gets my backing on this one.

However, I do really value both sites as top-quality indie gaming resources - some of the posts on TIGS seem a bit immature, but Derek's write-ups and recommendations are spot on. Also, the fact that TIGS news posters and forumites aren't afraid to give their honest opinions is refreshing (even if it does result in someones work being totally slated - mine included).

Indygamer is a bit more adult in comparison, but the main reason I favour it over TIGS is because of the sheer quanity of posts. Tim is a legend.

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

But both sites have different remits, so I don't understand this us versus them set up going on here. Well, I partially do as there seems to be a certain amount of grudge bearing going on from at least one commentator.

They're two sites with two different aims - one is to report the news as it happens (Tims) and the other is to offer an opinion on stuff (Tigs) and they both do what they do very well.

So, you've got the choice. If you don't like opinion, stick with Tims. If you don't like plain news - stick with TIGS. Or, as most people seem to manage - visit both and get the best of both worlds.

It's not primary school kids, you don't need to start a cross site war just because you've got issues. Mainly because it's tedious as hell to read through grudge laden comments and sniping.

So, can we please get on with the business of discussing indie games without this constant descent into trying to start a fight between the sites?

Really, no-one wants to read it and this isn't the forum for such views I don't think. I'm sure Tim doesn't want to have to keep wading through the comments with his head in his hands.

"Interesting... a lot of people say the same thing about video games! I wonder what you think of them?"

I enjoy video games. Not all of them, of course, but that's beside the point. Why else would I be posting a message on a site about video games?

But Derek, consider this. Perhaps one of the reasons some people take a dim view of video games, and view them as childish or weird, is because they have come to associate them with ostensibly grown-up writers who like to talk about their cocks and who still think swearing and crudeness for its own sake is funny.

What I've described is basically guilt by association, and not very fair, but it might be a factor.

And it's not just TIGSource, mind you. The mainstream press is much worse. I recall reading IGN's preview of Manhunt 2, in which the writer expresses unalloyed glee over being able to chainsaw a man's crotch and pull out his spinal chord through his scrotum.* Not even a hint of sarcasm, or wonderment as to why he derived pleasure from this, and wasn't ashamed to admit it openly. The readers were probably, mostly, like-minded.

Sorry if I seem down on you and your site. I think you do some good work and I have enjoyed your games. And I don't expect or want humorless writing about something that is, after all, supposed to be fun. Just a little more maturity would be nice sometimes.

* I might have the details wrong but it was something like that.

The Flintstones : The Honeymooners

as

The Underside : (blank)?

---

Oh and this doesn't look like CS which is nice to see.

@Anonymous: Fair enough, although my point was that the people who label video games as "childish" obviously take a very narrow view of the medium, and I feel you're doing the same with TIGSource (and specifically, my posts).

To wit, the number of posts I've made where I don't curse or use blue humor heavily outweigh the number of posts where I do. I've also tried to post about games that are tied to art, politics, and social issues whenever possible. I think a cursory glance through the website is proof enough of this.

But in any case, I want you to know that I feel no need to defend my sense of humor. The way I casually cuss and *occasionally* talk about dirty subjects on TIGSource is pretty close to the way I talk in real life. It's how I talk to my friends, if not my mother. And pretty much everyone cusses casually in private, but some of the most brilliant and insightful people do it in front of a crowd. Like George Carlin, or Kurt Vonnegut (did you know he wrote the first novel to have the word "Fuck" in the title?).

Which isn't to say I am at their level or even close. They are heroes of mine.

So yeah, when you tell me to show a little maturity, I politely and humbly tell you to show a little maturity yourself. Because in my opinion, mature adults realize that the world is full of beautiful, complex, uplifting things, but it's also a bunch of FUCKING SHIT, COCKS, and PUSSIES.

And why should games be any different.

(For those interested, the Vonnegut book I mentioned is called "The Big Space Fuck.")

@Derek: It's not only your obsession with genitals that show a high level of immaturity. Your response to me earlier on here shows as well, just like you screaming: "CAVE STORY RIPOFF" about The Underside whenever you can. Just your entire behaviour shows it.

As far as the us vs. them thing goes, if you know Indygamer's history, you know that Alec and Derek (but especially Alec) have been attacking and insulting Tim out of the blue for no reason a couple of times before (like here), which did (and still does) create a feeling of them seeing it as a competition, and a "us vs. them" thing.

Kon-Tiki: you are DULL and BORING and should SHUT THE HELL UP.

That sure contributed to the discussion, and certainly wasn't petty flaming. The more I see this, the more it feels like the vast majority of the TIGS crowd are flaming trolls, plain and simply due to exactly such replies like yours.

Come off it mate, who do you think wants to actually read bullshit like this? Everyone ITT should shut the hell up and play some fucking games. Enough with the ridiculous character assassination and pointless site comparisons.

Tiki, your one man anti-Derek crusade perhaps should be taken up in a more private environment where it's not inflicted upon everyone else, no?

I've been a fan of Mr. Vermeulen for many years! He such an amazing designer, just take a look at his design docs for "Little Pirate" and "Ninja Forever". I can't wait until they're released - they will be the greatest freeware games ever!

The amount of detail and passion in these design is so tangible its almost edible. And you know a guy with such an easy-going spirit is going to create great fun games for everyone!

Odd... I can't remember showing anybody the design docs of Ninja Forever, except for a select few people, of which two (out of three or four) are team members. Nobody who I've shown the design docs to are online at the moment, though... I don't even know if I had a digital version of the design docs of Little Pirate, except for the background sketches, but I tossed those off of my comp after finishing them. I can't remember sending them to anybody, though :S

I'm just such a fan of your work with the freehare that I thought I'd check out your designs! :)

But what happened to the minimalistic "index" design?

The one which had the site down for a few weeks? That was a server move and our first host keeping our domain hostage.

I second Oddbob.. I'm sick of hearing about this and it really taints the comments section of any article.

You talk about maturity Kon-Tiki and yet you continue to voice your private problems in public? Do you really think it helps your image? Personally I couldn't care less if you have a problem with Derek or not.. just take it up with him in private rather than getting on a soapbox.

It might be worth checking who started this. Wasn't me. Besides, I'm sick and tired of Derek dissing everything and everyone he's doesn't like personally, no matter whether what they make or do is good or not, and telling people what they should like and who they should mock. That should stop, and I'm far from the only one who thinks so, so how exactly is it just me who's tired of his and his groupies' shit?

I'm tired of Derek too! I'm tired of people who have opinions and yet still allow for discussion. It doesn't make sense. It makes a lot more sense to attack people who don't agree with you on comment threads. Look at all the work you did digging up "penis" posts! That is dedication. I will follow a man who is dedicated to his cause to the bitter end and who is always Right, just like Raf.

I'd rather let you decide what to think of people for me. That is because you are Raf and you are TruIndie! We should be listening to you. :)

Raf: I don't understand why it's such a big deal to you if I say my opinion? Really, let's just talk this through right now and not subject anyone else to it after today. I'm not really sure what you expect from me, but I'm willing to find out. I can't be any more reasonable than that.

We can do it in this thread, or you can e-mail or im me.

It's pretty obvious what his problem is. He's bitter and pissed off about being banned from TIGSource, and this approach is his way of dealing with it.

There's a major difference between saying an opinion and repeatedly bitching at people for doing what they want, then claim you know what indie gaming is about and that those that do what they want when making a game aren't indie.

There's also a major difference between saying an opinion and repeatedly mobbing people who have an opinion that's different than yours.

There's also a difference between saying an opinion and just plain-out running in and insulting people on their own sites out of the blue for no reason whatsoever.

There's also a difference between saying an opinion and using excuses to talk about your genitals (and for the record, that took me less than 5 minutes to find those links, and no, I didn't use Google. Didn't use any other site than TIGSource itself for that. They're just that easy to find)

You call yourself indie, but I've yet to see you show any goodwill or the attitude that comes with it, unless being indie means bitching at other people for actually doing something they love while praising your own stuff to the sky without having anything to actually show for it while spouting juvenile nonsense. Or is that what being an indie is all about, being a prick to others and having others join you in it?

Derek,

Just to be clear, I don't want to get involved in a spat between Raf and yourself. My comments were meant as written. I don't know anything about his beef with you.

It also was not my intention to single out your posts. Alot of what I don't like at TIGSource was written by others.

In summary, I'm not crazy about TIGSource. (As I said, I am not crazy about much of the gaming press, period.)

Nor is it your job to please me. If you are happy with what you are doing, then keep on doing it. To each his own. You will notice I did not post my comments at TIGSource. I have no interest in changing you.

And yes, the world is full of crudeness and so forth. I have never counted that as a legitimate reason for joining in on it.

(I do think there is a place in art for portraying the ugliness of life but not glorifying it or trivializing the reality behind it. But that's for another discussion.)

Peace.

Anonymous, the thing between Derek and me is that they think I want to get back at them for them banning me after I told them Akuji the Demon is better for a list that's meant to introduce people to indie gaming, and because I asked where the logic was in letting someone who doesn't even know who made Cave Story set up recommendations on that list. In my book, they lost even the last pieces of basic respect by putting up a game I recommended a few days after banning me, claiming high by low they found that game on some other source (which they would've found before then, as the game was out for 5 years already), and pointed out that the game isn't a Roguelike, as they stated (it's a space exploration game, like Elite. That's as much a Roguelike as a My Little Pony show), and even though they had it clearly categorized as Roguelike, they twisted and turned everything I said so that they eventually believed I was the one calling it that, and not them, and bitched at me for that.

Along with that, they've invaded this place several times, throwing random insults at Tim, like what I linked to before and bash other people's games for absolutely no apparent reason, of which The Underside is the clearest example.

If it were up to me, I'd stay away from them, but they (and that's not just Derek) come to this place as well, and poison good indie developers' motivation with their snides all while telling people on other sites than TIGSource what to do and think. That's why I don't like them, with Derek at the lead of it. I don't like their juvenile, bullying mobster attitude.

Raf: perhaps it comes off the wrong way, but all I really want to do is give my opinion and argue it when I feel it's right. I do make jokes sometimes, it's true, but I have never purposefully insulted someone for no reason. And when I feel I've done them wrong, I apologize to them, as I did with Arthur (Mr. Podunkian).

Regarding my work in the community, I've completed several freeware games and am now working on a commercial indie game which I submitted to IGF last year. I've run TIGSource for years without pay and have tried my best to put together features and competitions which promote indie games. The list of games we put together earlier this year drove a lot of traffic to those developers and I have received thanks for it (although I was merely the editor). I feel that these things reveal how much I love the community and want to see it flourish.

And this "rivalry" between TIGSource and Tim... you should know that both Alec and I speak to Tim via chat and e-mail. Not regularly, but when we do, it's always on friendly terms, and we discuss games and our respective websites together. Tim, of course, still writes an occasional article for TIGSource, and many of the TIGSource regulars also write for Indygamer. I've known Tim a long time (as long as I've run TIGSource), and he knows that I respect him the way I know he respects me. The same goes for Alec. The point is that many of the people on both sites have friendly relationships that exist outside of the comments sections.

So what I'm trying to say is that I love the indie scene and I love making, playing, and discussing games. I'm only human and I'm perfectly willing to admit that not everything I do is perfect. But I try my best and I think I've done a pretty good job overall. I won't ever apologize for having a different opinion than you, or for defending those opinions, but for the times that I've called you names or insulted you, I'm sorry, because that's never called for. Just understand that I try my best to learn from my mistakes and I can't do any better than that.

My impression of Derek is that he's way more mature than most people his age. That's seen in his actions; he's created games, he moderates the forum fairly responsibly, he runs one of the biggest blogs about indie games, he won the IGF, and I think he's still in his early twenties. I'm nearly 30 and haven't accomplished anywhere near as much.

Yeah, his language is reflective of lower class youth culture, but so is a lot of people's, it doesn't bother me even though it's not my style. It's funny sometimes, I can appreciate the humor of it even though I don't talk like that myself. Different personalities have different ways of talking, some of the most mature people in the world curse and refer to genitals a lot.

I will say that Derek has conducted himself admirably in his responses to both Arthur Lee and Raf. Whether he was right or wrong to begin with, he offered unqualified apologies, and that shows good will and humility.

Good for you, Derek.

The apology, yes. Only his actions will tell whether it's a sincere one or not, though. His other responses, on the other hand...

"I think there's only one person here who's obsessed with my penis, Raf!









...meet me in the TIGSource private forums? *wink*"

"In other news, Raf is doing google searches for my penis. :D

Quite nice, mature replies from him, those. His "Raf fan" nonsense is really mature as well. Still, the apology is at least a step in the right direction. I'm not expecting Derek to have as much passion about the indie scene as Tim does (going to IGF, good for him. Making it possible for others to go to IGF, even if it goes at the cost of personal sacrifices, that's as good as can be. One's Derek, the other's Tim). Having some basic respect towards others and their work is as much as I can ask for, and the apology's a step in the right direction for that. The "LOL Raf googles for penises!" crap by far isn't, nor is the repeated "Your game stinks as it's a blatant Cave Story ripoff" stuff.

I am your biggest fan and I am most certainly not Derek!

I mean most people probably wouldn't like the way you pretend that people say things that they didn't, but I do! I think its great that you keep fighting things even when there's nothing to fight about.

I love you Raf, don't treat me like crap too. :(

Let's just band together and treat everyone else like crap together! :)

Oh, I agree that Tim is at least as admirable as Derek, maybe even moreso. But super-admirable doesn't take away from admirable.

this may not be a school playground, but it's the internet.
not much difference.

derek should grow up.
i still don't believe he deserved that igf thing.
rigged!!!!!!!!!!!

Raf is the only one who is fit to tell people what to think, do or be.

If you want to be TruIndie, you must follow the way of Raf. Otherwise you are not TruIndie.

The only way to end the terror of success on the internet is to follow in His footsteps.

Remember that all posts made by anyone are rigged, except those by Raf and the followers of TruIndie - only then will you live a true and happy life.

Let's have a long pointless discussion about how much we like something.

who the hell gave derek the right to decide whats truely indie or not.

who the hell gave derek the right to decide whats truely indie or not.

Ehm - he can express his opinion like everyone else?

The only thing immature I can find in this discussion are all the trolls starting a flame-war in the comments section of a totally unrelated news post and Kon-Tiki's fueling the flames.

Somebody doesn't like TIGSource? Fine - don't go there but stop licking Tim's ass - I bet he is as confused by the whole discussion as you are. And stop flaming.

the thing between Derek and me is that they think I want to get back at them for them banning me

Oooh! Thank's for sharing that piece of information with us. Yes, you sound A LOT as if you were trying to get back at Derek & Co. whatever it takes...

That's boring. You're boring everybody. Stop boring everyone!

Wow, everyone went off topic. Anyways, this isn't really a cave story wannabe. How do I know? Well, i'm his brother. We started our own little comp to see who could make a better version of cs. He kept on working on it until it changed from a csw to some other game. Right now it's called csw because he has no name for it. So yeah, just some exclusive info.