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Sunday, November 11, 2007
Winter Competition: YoYo Games is sponsoring $1,000 as the grand prize for their latest contest. Theme is 'Winter', and the final submission date is December 23rd 2007. Two runner-ups are entitled to $500 and $250 respectively. [contest rules, current submissions]

- The game should not change the screen resolution and should run in a window.
- A member is allowed to submit at most two games in each competition.
- You can submit a game you created in the past but only if it is not already published on YoYo Games.


Indie Game Developer Showcase: ECD Systems is selling a collection of entries from their recent competition on DVD for $7.95.

Fedora Spade 3: The latest chapter in the Fedora Spade series should be out soon. [Episodes 1 and 2]

Indie Games Group: I + is a group on Opera with discussions centered around indie games.

Exile: Ovine by Design's Exile remake is out.

Platine Dispositif: Murasame drop a hint about his upcoming Comiket release. [Engage to Jabberwock mirror, map, article]

Hot Soup Processor: HSP (a Japanese equivalent of the popular Game Maker) is available in English. [source: Null1024]

Axiom Overdrive: A couple of screenshots from Reflexive's Axiom Overdrive can be found at it's official website.

Articles

MarkUp Issue 9: MarkUp issue 9 (the official GM magazine) is now available for download.

Acidbomb: David Galindo shares his experience of selling a commercial Game Maker production.

Interviews

InstantAction: GameSpot interviews Josh Williams of GarageGames. [source: Indie Informer]

Puzzle Quest: Gamasutra's Brandon Sheffield interviews the COO of D3, Yoji Takenaka.
81 Comments:
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/11/2007 09:26:00 PM:  
Hey cactus, are you going to enter this 'winter' contest?
Anonymous cactus said at 11/12/2007 12:30:00 AM:  
I'm on it, like flies on a dead horse :)
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/12/2007 12:49:00 AM:  
This winter contest is a total crap. Game maker is a stupid and very limited program and is for noobs.
Open the contest also to REAL coders!
Too bad that the indie scene is 90% done by low quality game maker shitties, also Knytt is very limited also if original.
Blogger haowan said at 11/12/2007 12:59:00 AM:  
That is just a silly, elitist attitude. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/12/2007 02:34:00 AM:  
Excellent cactus, we are now competition (if I finish anything).

What's funny is that eclipse's link is to a game making engine. (wehaveexplosive dot com). If you're a real coder, why bother with game making engines at all?

Also, I think that if you personally have never made a game as good as the best Game Maker games (or -- never even made a game at all) you shouldn't really be complaining about noobs.
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/12/2007 02:59:00 AM:  
Obviously Eclipse is a total idiot. With GM, it is possible to show strength in a developer to push an engine to its limits. (Ex. Immortal Defense.)
Anonymous Kon-Tiki said at 11/12/2007 05:38:00 AM:  
The entries will be most probably used as promotional material for Game Maker, so it speaks for itself that the games have to be made in it. Any other studio or programming language and the contest will miss its point for the organizers.
Anonymous cactus said at 11/12/2007 09:27:00 AM:  
@Paul: Great! Seems like the competition will be quite stiff. I just hope it doesn't end up like the Official Game Maker Awards. May the best game win :)
Blogger Zero3K said at 11/12/2007 09:44:00 AM:  
Hot Soup Processor's english version hasn't been updated in a while. I hope that someone continues the work on it.
Anonymous BenH said at 11/12/2007 12:52:00 PM:  
I wonder if Eclipse knows how to make fun games? :)
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/12/2007 01:13:00 PM:  
I coded for job on ps2 and i'm coding for job on psp and pc, and i also code for fun on gp2x, so I know how to push an engine or a little machine such an handheld.
At Paul Eres, Akom3d is not a game making engine, is a 3d engine for coders, you almost compared something like Valve's Source Engine with something like Game Maker so I'm gonna think you really don't know how a commercial game is made or also how a software like game maker itself is made.
Also, Akom3D is my own engine, i'm not only using it for my games but i've also created it so i think is bit different.
I'm sorry for my previous post but I was angry because i really love the indie scene and it's a shame that's almost game maker based because people like me are cutted out from contest like this ones...
I don't want to be in an elite, i want to partecipate too! But why the hell i must use game maker if i won't?

PS @anonymous, maybe i'm an idiot, maybe also you haven't a brain capable to understand what i'm trying to say
Anonymous Kon-Tiki said at 11/12/2007 02:13:00 PM:  
Akom3D? Time to take a look at it and see how it compares to Crystalspace :D

Anyways, a bit of competition can't hurt, and if we can all pit our skills and technologies used against each other, I think interesting things can come out of it. I don't think anybody here can offer a $1000 price, though, so I suppose it's mostly a matter of fun and brag rights, if we'd organize a freestyle competition. Still, got to be able to accept that Game Maker competition to be just Game Maker-made games, as it's for promotional purposes. If we would do that, it'd be for fun and to compare skills. That's quite a difference.
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/12/2007 02:21:00 PM:  
yep, this contest seems only to promote game maker, i think a freestyle one would be interesting
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/12/2007 02:26:00 PM:  
Working on a part of a game with a team involves different skills than making every part of a game yourself, so we'd really have to compare a game you created just by yourself with the best of the Game Maker games. I still suspect the better Game Maker games would probably make anything you've made alone seem amateurish in comparison.

And there are plenty of other indie contests you could enter. There's the shmup contests, there are contests on the TIGSource forums, there's the IGF (grand prize $20,000, twenty times this), I wouldn't worry about just *one* of those many contests being only for Game Maker. Enter the IGF if you want a real indie contest.
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/12/2007 04:38:00 PM:  
game maker isn't even that limited. might not be able to do a ton of fancy 3d on it, but some of us far prefer 2d games anyways, which gm is ideal for and very powerful in that aspect. most games i've enjoyed on the pc in recent times have been developed in gm.
Anonymous Kairos said at 11/12/2007 08:12:00 PM:  
Eclipse: Independent Games Festival will be a good competition for you. This compo is simply for GM users only. You're not a GM user, but many aren't as well, and you guys can look into other competitions.

Game Maker isn't stupid, it's actually rather powerful considering some of the games I've seen from it. It's just mostly geared toward 2D, but there are some great GM classics; it just looks bad when you see the majority of community games.
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/13/2007 01:20:00 AM:  
Yup i missed IGF this year, I'll be at Lyon Game Connection but with the software house i'm working in not alone...
@Paul Eres, i really dubt about it, not because i'm so good but because i think that if a dude haven't enough interest to go "deep" and don't stop at GM i think his games will be ever without "something"...
I hope will you hear soon about my upcoming indie title 'cause i know that talking like this can be very insolent
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/13/2007 01:28:00 AM:  
Huh? I'm not sure what you mean about stopping. A lot of the people who use GM can program in other languages too, and just prefer using GM.

Saying that no good game can be made in GM is like saying you can't make a good game for the Game Boy. The Game Boy had a lot of limits too (4 colors, all green-grey, small screen and resolution, slow processor) but there were tons of great games for it. Compared to those limits, GM's limits are nothing.
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/13/2007 01:45:00 AM:  
dude GM runs on PC not on a gameboy. You need to compare GM games with PC games possibilities, I haven't say that GM games aren't good, but can be A LOT better with something that let you fully use pc hardware capabilities.
"A lot of the people who use GM can program in other languages too, and just prefer using GM."
'cause they're to noob to do something useful in a proper programming language
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/13/2007 01:47:00 AM:  
No, it's because they don't want to waste their time coding their own collision detection system or sprite animation routines for every game they make. There are more important things about game design than the technology.
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/13/2007 01:59:00 AM:  
yeah and they spent time doing stupid tricks on GM to reach something that can be done in a row of code with a real game dev stuff ;)
oh and btw, you need to code this type of thingies only once and you can also improve your own stuff when you need something different and you can also do better game design too...
I'm having a good laught seeing all that crappy stuff on YoYo Games
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/13/2007 02:01:00 AM:  
Could you give an example of what you could do with a line of code that you'd need "tricks" to do in Game Maker? I can't think of anything offhand.
Anonymous x_x said at 11/13/2007 02:22:00 AM:  
Actually I think that knowing how to program (probably that's what you mean by not stopping at GM) has almost nothing to do with the ability to make fun games. Look at Vigil: Blood Bitterness. A splendid game, or rather it could be, if only the programmer wasn't so inept. But dispite all te programming blunders - the game is still recognised as good. Another example is Super Ulianov Brothers - a GM platformer. I was annoyed by it's triangular jumps, so I decided to look at the code. And I discovered, that the author had almost no idea of what he was doing programming-wise. Damn, he duplicated animation frames to make animations slower. But none the less, that's one of the best platformers I've played. I don't know if it'll make it to my personal top 10 (after all, it's hard to compete with Gunstar Heroes and the like), but it'll definitely make it to the top 20.

About GM being powerful - it actually isn't. Al it offers is an event loop, some graphics, audio and input support and collisions. And it isn't even that good at what it does. Having all angles in degrees (and thus having to add degtorad() or radtodeg function to pretty much every line that deals with trigonometry) and having directions associated with vectors the wrong way (like (1,1) vector has a direction of 315, not 45, because y axis points down, and angles are still calculated counterclockwise) made me want to kill myself and telefrag Mark Overmars. I once wanted to make a caveflier, only to discover that inability to determine where the collision is pretty much ruins everything. In the end, I circumvented the problem, but man, was the solution perverse. Also, GM is slow as hell.

Despite all that, GM has one definite advantage. You can make something that works in 5 minutes. Unless you are a programming pro - you can't do that with just code.

I think that GM (I really want to say "tools like GM", but I haven't found anything that quite compares to it) has an important place. It is very useful for people, who have enough talent and understanding to come up with a good idea for the game and understand how to implement it, but not enough time or ability to use a code engine (not to mention writing everything from scratch). After all, code engines are all about knowing what's in it and how it works, and that has nothing to do with the ability to make games - only with practice and programming talent. You don't need to know the names of every part of a car engine and you don't need to know what they do to drive a car. It's a good idea to know all that, but you don't have to.

The bottom line is that there is nothing particularly bad about GM. So what if 99% of GM games are made by kids who can't spell, let alone program? Then again, why exactly is that a bad thing? At least those kids have a chance to understand what it takes to make a good game/
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/13/2007 02:43:00 AM:  
yes, you hitted it man, it's almost all what i think about gm.

@Paul, x_x did an example that fits just after a post
"I once wanted to make a caveflier, only to discover that inability to determine where the collision is pretty much ruins everything. In the end, I circumvented the problem, but man, was the solution perverse"
Anonymous Kon-Tiki said at 11/13/2007 02:50:00 AM:  
To give you all an idea, I'm a C/C++ programmer using the Allegro library. I'm not all that good at it, especially because I can't apply pointers very well yet.

I made some very basic games in Gamemaker once, stuff like one-screen platformers and a crossing between Sokoban and Nibbles. Took me two days to do all that (especially due to all the drag'n drop stuff and switching between screens and such). I tried to code those things in C/C++ as well. Took me one day, each. Dunno how to accept saying GM per definition is faster for development, as it's proven otherwise to me.

I've known plenty of people who know some decent programming who gave Game Maker a try, were full of praise over it, until they actually tried to do more than just a bit of toying around. One of them stepped on to Python to write an RPG engine, for example, because Game Maker simply wasn't able to do what he wanted to.

Then there's the matter of filesizes. The files of GM games are quite bloated. Those two tiny little arcade games were 1,4Mb each, while compiled under C/C++, it was 150Kb or so, images included. What's all the size go to?

Is Game Maker so crap then? Nope. It's allowed for games like Ark 22, which is a great GM-based RPG. It's been having troubles with serious framedrops, but Srehpog has fixed them. Games like that show that GM can be used for good games. Stuff like Cactus' crap or the stuff you see on that YoYo Games' contest page, on the other hand... They're a pukefest.
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/13/2007 02:55:00 AM:  
Don't ever look at yoyogames for good GM games. Look in places like the EO. A lot of the developers of the classics are there.
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/13/2007 02:58:00 AM:  
Also, GM is definitely fast for development, you just have to be knowledgeable in GML and have some experience. Drag and drop will never get anyone anywhere, it just makes it look bad.
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/13/2007 03:21:00 AM:  
GML isn't faster than C++ if you know what you do, also a well written engine allows you to do things that you simply can't imagine using GML because it will offer to you both a fast high-level interface and also the possibility to go deep to do fancier of optimized things as you wish
Blogger haowan said at 11/13/2007 03:31:00 AM:  
He's not talking about speed of execution, coderboy.
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/13/2007 03:42:00 AM:  
Eclipse has said some really stupid stuff here. Getting mad over not being able to enter a Game Maker contest where the whole point is promoting the program, then deciding to just rant about how 'bad' the program is and acting extremely immature and ignorant about it all. I personally do not care about the latest 3D technology and physics and all that. If I was I wouldn't be spending most of my time playing games on emulators than actual commercial PC games (most of which I do find incredibly boring personally). Making a fun game is all that really matters in the indie world, and there are plenty of very well made and highly playable games made using the Game Maker software and there will continue to be. GM itself is constantly improving as well. Also the software allows those of us who are perhaps not into coding that much and are more artists and musicicans or even have a game idea they would like to see done and can use this software to do so relatively easy. I will agree that the Yoyo Games site is mostly full of bad games but then so is everywhere else, including the real commercial stores (and they ask you to hand over money for some of that crap). As always just search through the garbage and you'll soon find some good stuff. This ignorant and elitist atitude shown by eclipse makes me wonder if he understands indie gaming at all.
Anonymous Kon-Tiki said at 11/13/2007 04:29:00 AM:  
"I personally do not care about the latest 3D technology and physics and all that."
I remember plenty of people verbally beating me over not liking N and the likes, and one of the most recurring arguments (besides "Ur so dump!") was the praise over the perfect physics in the game. I do agree that 3D and physics don't necessarily make a game fun, but too many people in the scene seem to think so differently.

That said, can you guys list 10 of the best Gamemaker games? Don't spoo over Cactus, though. I want actual games, and the best there are.
Anonymous cactus said at 11/13/2007 04:50:00 AM:  
I don't mind criticism, Kon-Tiki, but why all the bad mouthing? If you have something constructive to say about my games you can feel free to adress that where it's relevant, as you did by commenting on MinuBeat. I've even taken what you and some others said there to heart and have begun trying to focus on getting something worthwhile into the making.

Pointing me out as a bad developer here amongst the thousands of GM users makes it seem almost like a personal vendetta. Did I do anything to you that I'm unaware of? If that's the case, then I apologize.
Anonymous Kon-Tiki said at 11/13/2007 05:04:00 AM:  
It's nothing personal. I'm just tired of people putting you on a pedestal while it's undeserved. Boasting a game to be developed "under 12 hours" simply shows you don't understand what game development is about. Along with that, your game's graphics are always a bit bland, down to right-out hideous, but people don't seem to be allowed to say that, for some reason, while you're allowed to say the backgrounds of this or that game (like XED) are bland, while it shows infinitely more time and effort spent on them, and look way better as a result, than yours, but dissing that's allowed, it seems, while you yourself don't take the same amount of effort and care in your not-quite-games. You got alot of good ideas, but the very core of making a good game design is having a good idea and letting it ripe, grow and evolve. It's a bit like wine that way. Personally, I'm just tired of hearing how oh so great and mighty your 2-minute mockups done in Gamemaker are and all the crap people get from voicing an opinion that doesn't stroke with the praising of the almighty Cactus. It's simply undeserved. Just spend more time on one game, and work it out until it's actually worth something. You'll be closer to your full potential then.
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/13/2007 05:13:00 AM:  
@haowan
I'm not talking about speed of execution too, stupidboy.

@anonym
having the possibility to do advanced 2d or 3d is always better than haven't it. It's true that 3d or physic driven game isn't always better but it's true that sometimes it is. And also gpu accellerated 2d is ALWAYS better than that crappy and slow GM 2d, try to do a fast 2d rotozooming with filtering on GM :)
The thruth is that a guy can do a nice game on GM but the same guy can be able to do it always better without GM if he has the knowledge... so GM is only for people that hasn't enough skill to code for real. (who choose to use GM and says that he's also able to code but it's faster with GM hasn't enough skills too).

Also if you hasn't enough interest to go further GM i think your ideas will also be worst because you're half blind.
It's easy to say "I can do a good game also with GM because I have great ideas" but you will never undestand how much are you limited and blind using this crappy tool if you never get out, and your games will be also limited too also if you aren't conscious of this.

This is my last post, I hope that in some yeas you GM-fanboy will experiment something else and then you will find yourself wrong, because atm you all aren't capable to understand thingies like this :)
Anonymous oddbob said at 11/13/2007 05:58:00 AM:  
Wow.

*picks up popcorn*

Anyone want a cup of tea?
Anonymous x_x said at 11/13/2007 06:26:00 AM:  
@Eclipse
I wrote a stupidly long post specifically for you and you missed the whole point of it. So now I'll try to make it short.

The ability to make (conceive, design, whatever) good games has nothing to do with the ability to program.

In other words, what does the ability to understand what's fun have to do with, say, the ability to understand multiple inheritance? Since when not understanding memory handling makes you half blind?

"GM is only for people that haven't enough skill to code for real", you say. That is true. But what does that have to do with making games? What does the ability to disassemble and reassemble a video camera have to do with the ability to make good movies?

Since you like to talk shit about others so much, I think I’ll allow myself to get a bit personal too. I think you’re so pissed about GM because it desacralizes game development. One no longer needs some oh-so-special skill and knowledge to make a game, only some taste, common sense and a desire to make a game. You can no longer brag about making games, because, bah, humbug, anyone can make them now.

@oddbob
Sorry, can't join you. Don't like tea nor popcorn. :) However, I think it's time for me to stop thinking that I'm reasonable and that I make reasonable arguements, since entering this argument was pretty unreasonable to begin with. Okay, shutting up now.
Anonymous oddbob said at 11/13/2007 06:37:00 AM:  
x_x, I think you've nailed it infinitely more tactfully than I could have managed.

Shame about the tea and popcorn though :(
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/13/2007 06:56:00 AM:  
Ok, i said that it was my last post, but i need to explain better that i'm not angry with anything...
I said that's true, with GM you can do very nice games, but simply there's a lot of stuff that *possibly* can help you doing your game far better that you're not allowed to do.
A great game is based on a great idea AND on a great realisation.
GM takes you to do and also to THINK only things inside it's limits, a GM user is mind-oriented to think only inside GM bounds so also him ideas are restricted inside that bounds when he realize the game.
I'm also not really pissed of the fact that anyone can make a game because mostly are only pieces of crap but it's poor that some dudes think they're "arrived" with GM and they can't see that they've just started and how much there's behind it :)

Good luck to all GM and non users ;)
Anonymous oddbob said at 11/13/2007 08:04:00 AM:  
The thing you're single handedly failing to grasp Eclipse, and it's quite befuddling to watch unfold - truth be told - is that it *really* doesn't matter what you write a game in as long as the end result is dandy.

I know, controversial eh.

I know of approximately zero end users who give a flying monkeys whether a game is written in GM, C++ or Swahili. Honestly, they don't care. They just want a game that plays well and entertains them in whatever way they like to be entertained.

Whichever board, whichever showcase and whichever language you decide to have a quick glance at - you'll find a mound full of crap written in it. Amongst that crap - you'll find a few sparkling gems. It matters not a jot whether it's a high level or low level language I'm afraid.

I don't think I'm missing out on anything using GM. It *enables* me to do what I want in a way that suits me. Sure, I could pick up another language given a few months and some spare time - but why should I when I already have a perfectly capable tool?

Y'see - I don't need to push masses of polygons around a screen, I don't need grass shaders or the likes. It's not that I don't realise I don't need them - I just plain don't.

If I wanted to delve into 3d, I wouldn't use GM - I'd use whatever tool enabled me to do that in the quickest and easiest manner that suited me to get my game out there.
I know what I could do with another tool, I'm perfectly capable of picking up another language and I'm pretty darn happy with what I've got. Shocking, I know.

I'm happy with my lot in life. You don't appear to be, and that's quite sad really.

Still, you're young. You'll learn.
Anonymous Kon-Tiki said at 11/13/2007 08:08:00 AM:  
x_x, I think you're missing Eclipe's point of view. He's trying to say that good game developers can make good games in Game Maker, but that it'll always hamper their ability to grow and evolve in making great games, due to the limitations Game Maker has. He does seem to realize it's good for kids to make a quick game in, and to toy around with. In the end, those with real talent will be able to do more with more flexible languages and tools than Gamemaker, and not wanting to look further than Gamemaker is just a sign of laziness, of not wanting to grow and improve.
Anonymous oddbob said at 11/13/2007 08:22:00 AM:  
Proof please.
Anonymous Kon-Tiki said at 11/13/2007 08:24:00 AM:  
Proof? Read all his posts as they are intended for a change.
Anonymous oddbob said at 11/13/2007 08:26:00 AM:  
No, I want some proof that it has even the remotest grounding in fact and not supposition.

I know what he's saying and it's still idiotic.
Blogger haowan said at 11/13/2007 08:27:00 AM:  
Ah yeah, I misread your post Eclipse.
Blogger haowan said at 11/13/2007 08:32:00 AM:  
But yeah, Eclipse is being an idiot, but that's OK because he's just a kiddy PC games coderkid. These people often have closed minds. ahuahua
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/13/2007 09:35:00 AM:  
yeah i'm a kiddy pcgamer coderkid that live, eat, study and pay the taxes with moneys gained from coding games.
I used klik&play and first versions of GM years and years ago for some months, then I learned a language for games called DIV, then i moved to C and C++ mastering directx and opengl too, you spent your days doing stupid and crappy stuff on GM, who's the kid?
Anonymous x_x said at 11/13/2007 11:48:00 AM:  
@Kon-Tiki
Okay, let's assume for a moment that that's what Eclipse is trying to say. Now would any of you please explain me, how being able to walk hamper one's ability to run? And how exactly giving people the ability to create something without, as oddbob said, a few months and some spare time makes GM a stupid program? Oh yeah, about growing and evolving. I think that coming up with said perverse solution for collision problem had made me a better person than looking through dozens of pages of API references ever would. I'll be blunt. Personal growth has nothing to do with the tools you use.

@Eclipse
It is a real pity that haowan gave you an excuse to act as an asshole, but that draws my attention to one thing... Could you please spend a couple of minutes and show us a list af games you worked on? Just curious. After all, you never named a single one.

And another thing. Since my last attempt of conciseness failed, I'll give it another shot.
Dont mistake coders with game developers. That's two different groups of people. Yes, they overlap. So what?
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/13/2007 12:01:00 PM:  
i worked on a ps2 title, several demos as freelancer and now i'm working on a psp and pc title, i can't say almost anything because also if i finished my job in two of this cases the tittles are under development and i signed several NDA :) btw some of this games i coded on, also if 3d, can be worst than a nice gm game no dubt, game biz is full of assholes too
Anonymous x_x said at 11/13/2007 12:14:00 PM:  
You still haven't given a single name.
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/13/2007 12:22:00 PM:  
He also didn't answer the question of what you can only do with trickery in GM that you can do in a single line in a lower-level language. I know GM has some limitations, but I really don't think they're as bad as he presumes, considering that you can use custom DLLs and make external calls to them, which adds a lot of functionality to the basic engine (for instance, I used one to play music in .ogg format).

If Eclipse played a much earlier version of GM he may not realize how much it's improved since then (it now does use DirectX 8 and hardware acceleration and so on). It's still certainly not as fast, because it's an interpreted language it's about as slow as Python would be, but other than that I can't think of any major limitations (besides the strange conventions for degrees and the like someone mentioned, which isn't really a limitation so much as strange conventions).
Blogger haowan said at 11/13/2007 12:47:00 PM:  
Eclipse: I've actually never used Game Maker and I've been using C++ to program console games professionally for 5 years now. I worked on Peter Pan Legend Of Neverland on PS2, Stolen on PS2, Xbox and PC, and I've been on various canned projects. I'm working on PSP now. It's just that I have an open mind, and you have a closed one. I can accept that GM opens up the world of game development to a wide variety of people, you can't. I don't see why, seeing as how using these things is what paved the way for you to get into more serious coding.
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/13/2007 01:14:00 PM:  
It's not the tool that counts; it's the developer.

I mean, if you want to look at it at a technical standpoint, do so, but do realize that if someone has the talent, no matter which tool it'll be made in, it'll always be a success. That matters more than what it was developed in - that is what people should be thinking about instead of limitations and speed. Anybody would be more impressed with the gameplay rather than if you made it in GM or C++. Nobody cares about that. They only care about how fun the game is. And if there are people who judge based on what it was developed on, I feel really sorry for them.

Hampers development? That's another issue altogether. The very first thing that started this mess was the claim of how GM was a stupid and limited program and is for noobs - nobody gives a crap. Again, we care about the gameplay, not the engine.
Blogger Derek said at 11/13/2007 02:14:00 PM:  
I'm with you, eclipse. It's absolutely dreadful how easy for people to make games these days. God forbid, maybe my mom could make a game some day and express herself.

And it definitely makes it harder for us real coders to flex our nuts on the internet when guys like cactus are getting to experiment and have fun... while we spend 5 years working on 1% of a PS2 game. I've worked on at least 50 myself. I can't tell you what any of them are. You know, NDAs and all that. But you know, I'm a fucking ninja coder. You can tell because my e-nuts are so large.

But did I hear you right when you said that you're using C++? Or was that a joke. I'm just surprised, because you sound really 733t, d00d. And we both know that using any kind of programming language is for pussies and it's too bad that the mainstream game industry is like 91.4% done by total n00bz0rz who can't program in machine language. Maybe you newbs will understand what I'm saying when you write a compiler with nothing but 1s and 0s! *grabs crotch and squeezes*
Anonymous x_x said at 11/13/2007 02:41:00 PM:  
I 101d, man! Who needs 1s, anyway? Zeroes are the way to go!
Anonymous Kon-Tiki said at 11/13/2007 03:50:00 PM:  
@Derek: For some reason, everything you say has to involve your genitals, it seems. You a bit insecure about them, that you got to mention them each and every time you open your mouth?
Blogger Derek said at 11/13/2007 04:06:00 PM:  
Raf, it's great to see you, buddy! How's that list of 50 freeware games coming along? :D
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/13/2007 04:15:00 PM:  
Huh? Kon-tiki is Belgian? Tale-of-Tales is also based in Belgium. That's a hilarious webpage though. I wonder if that EU mean shower per week number is actually accurate. I hope not.
Anonymous Kon-Tiki said at 11/13/2007 05:24:00 PM:  
@Derek: Had some slight delays, but we've got it pretty much wrapped up. Be ready to eat your words soon. Do keep in mind that I'm constantly changing it, due to the constant stream of games coming out and some new games being better than other superb old ones.

@Paul: Yep, maar die Belgmoppen ed. doen me eerlijk gezegd niks :P
Anonymous cactus said at 11/14/2007 12:17:00 AM:  
@Kon-Tiki: If you're not too busy, would you mind talking a bit on MSN? My e-mail is arkansas2000 (at) hotmail.com ...
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/14/2007 12:57:00 AM:  
you guys haven't understood any single word of i've tried to say, i started with tools like klik&play and first versions of GM too, but i moved foward, i'm not a 1337 and i don't feel that low-level (guys c\c++ is high level btw) coding is always the best way.
I express myself in this manner, you can with GM, i feel limited with it, you not, so what's your problem? go make your games, i'll make my ones, dot.

oh btw, i haven't see a good game in gm from noone of you but hey, you all are great game designers for sure :)
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/14/2007 01:05:00 AM:  
"oh btw, i haven't see a good game in gm from noone of you but hey, you all are great game designers for sure :)"

That's because if you're biased against GM games you likely don't even bother to play the good ones for long enough to enjoy them. Would you like a list of the ones we've made?
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/14/2007 01:17:00 AM:  
yes please, i think i'll find some good ones too really, i've no dubt about it, i liked a lot of GM games but when i try to make a game i like to have "technical freedom" that GM doesn't offer. You simply can't say no, i'm not saying that gm isn't good to make nice freeware games, i said that it have A LOT of technical limits, if not why all the software houses are using programmin languages? guys the Valve coders are so stupids! they need to piss on the source engine and go making HL3 on Game Maker!!!
Also why indie software houses like moonpod and introversion used their own engine on Mr Robot or Darwinia? why 3d? 2d is always better! doesn't matter if your strategy game could feature landscapes, go everything over a 2d plane! This software houses guys are so stupid :(
Oh, damn also the Game Maker coder haven't used Game Maker to do Game Maker, he's a completely idiot!
Anonymous Mosh said at 11/14/2007 01:27:00 AM:  
With the elitest way you talk, eclipse, I'm not surprised people don't understand you, especially with ridiculous generalizations such as 'The winter contest is a total crap. Game make is stupid.'

You want some understanding, speak in a more mature manner.
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/14/2007 01:40:00 AM:  
Okay, I don't know what genres you like, but what I recommend as good examples of good Game Maker games are Clean Asia by cactus (who posted above), Immortal Defense by me (yay for self-promotion), Fedora Spade episodes 1 and 2 by Orchard-L, Return to Sector 9 by Pug Fugly (if I'm spelling his name right), and Seiklus by clysm.

And a lot of indie shareware companies DO use Game Maker. Immortal Defense is shareware, and a game called Cute Knight is actually in stores worldwide and on Amazon.com and was made in Game Maker. And there are about a half dozen other shareware games made by indie companies in Game Maker.

"Oh, damn also the Game Maker coder haven't used Game Maker to do Game Maker, he's a completely idiot!" <-- best quote of the thread!
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/14/2007 01:41:00 AM:  
i think i did it too, i've also never said something about game concepts on GM, i've always talked about the technical part and now i'm of the idea that gm users aren't also able to understand how to power off their PCs because my words had the same technical skill requirements that are needed to turn a machine on or off.
But like a lot are saying, it doesn't matter, because you can always do good games, also if you're spending hours wondering why the hell is the GM button that switch your pc off
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/14/2007 01:49:00 AM:  
I liked a lot Clean Asia, i've played it a month or two ago, it's a very nice little game, but it also feature low-res graphic (that's not always bad but i like it more on a game like cave story that on an abstract shooter) and laks of interesting special effects... but it's a very good game and i remember i thought that it was better than many non-gm games too.

That's a shooter i'm very slowly working on for gp2x, an opensource handheld with no gpu and almost 50 times slower than GM http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showtopic=38948&pid=563167&mode=threaded&show=&st=&
Anonymous oddbob said at 11/14/2007 04:20:00 AM:  
"guys the Valve coders are so stupids! they need to piss on the source engine and go making HL3 on Game Maker!!!
Also why indie software houses like moonpod and introversion used their own engine on Mr Robot or Darwinia? why 3d? 2d is always better! doesn't matter if your strategy game could feature landscapes, go everything over a 2d plane! This software houses guys are so stupid :("

I'll say this slowly, and in words of one sillybull wherever possible because you're still not grasping it.

Right.
Tools.
For.
The.
Job.

Simple really isn't it?

I know you're never going to grasp it though because you're seemingly intent on waving your coders penis under our noses in some sort of bizarre show of superiority.

And that's fine. I'll keep reading this because with every comment you get increasingly hilarious. Unintentionally, I might add.
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/14/2007 04:26:00 AM:  
that's what i mean and what i've explained and you never understood, GM isn't the right tool for my games, simply because i need more.
Is really so strange?
If your games fits inside GM limits GM is good for you, if not, use something other, i really don't undestand why saying that GM is limited for me is a try to show superiority...
btw i'm tired of that, so keep doing your stuff, good or not, with what you want and i'll keep to do my own too.
Blogger Moshboy said at 11/14/2007 04:43:00 AM:  
'so keep doing your stuff, good or not, with what you want and i'll keep to do my own too.'

Umm I think that pretty much sums everyones' attitude from the start. You came and disrupted things, not the other way around.

We're all tired of you repeating yourself.
Blogger haowan said at 11/14/2007 04:52:00 AM:  
"that's what i mean and what i've explained and you never understood, GM isn't the right tool for my games, simply because i need more.
Is really so strange?
If your games fits inside GM limits GM is good for you, if not, use something other, i really don't undestand why saying that GM is limited for me is a try to show superiority..."

But you were the one who came here criticising people for using GM in the first place, you idiot. You were the one saying they should use C++.
Anonymous Eclipse said at 11/14/2007 06:46:00 AM:  
ok, you are retarded. I haven't said that, i wrote only a post saying what the f*ck i wanted to say, then gm fanboys got hitted on his precious software... i've not posted on a gm forum, i've posted on an indie games site so stop this unuseful flame that i've not started (i've insulted the software not any user on my first post) and go doing your shit.
Blogger haowan said at 11/14/2007 07:23:00 AM:  
@Eclipse:

""A lot of the people who use GM can program in other languages too, and just prefer using GM."
'cause they're to noob to do something useful in a proper programming language"

hello

@Kon-Tiki:

nice strawman. you really are a bitch aren't you :)
Anonymous BenH said at 11/14/2007 08:23:00 AM:  
It's not someone's opinions that make them a bitch, it's how they say it.
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/14/2007 08:29:00 AM:  
Kon-Tiki: I don't know if it's a language thing or what, but you come across as a complete wanker. It's got nothing to do with what games you like and what games you don't. It's your whole personality that's repulsive.
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/14/2007 08:45:00 AM:  
Ok, I'm sorry. I just thought you were an idiot. You're clearly crazy.
Anonymous Darkside said at 11/14/2007 08:45:00 AM:  
Right... That's it..... I'm bloody well deleting my website.......... :/
Blogger Tim said at 11/14/2007 11:26:00 AM:  
Sorry guys, I barely spent more than fifteen minutes on a PC in the last few days. Hope things will change around this weekend.

I'm going to have to delete a lot of kon-tiki's comments. You can say what you want about cactus, that's fine. Swearing is okay (e.g. holy -) but insults or incitements are not cool.

Plus people will only take you seriously if you are nice about it. :)
Blogger BigBossSNK said at 11/14/2007 01:26:00 PM:  
You know, I went to the store today to buy some pants. The clerk told me the pants they had were half a size larger. I told him I didn't mind, so long as they weren't smaller. Going home after I bought the pants, I met a tailor in the cab. He told me he could make me some pants that fit perfectly, but that I'd have to visit his store for a custom fitting, and pay something extra.
With all the things in my life competing for attention and money, I ain't spending anything on custom tailored pants.
The important thing is:
Do these pants make my ass look big?
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/14/2007 02:00:00 PM:  
Ever feel like you've accidentally turned 2 pages at once?
Anonymous Anonymous said at 11/14/2007 02:01:00 PM:  
As for the work=popularity vibe. I'm working on a huge game project now. Bigger than the sprawling majority of indy games. But do I get the recognition? Barely. Does it bum me out? No. I do this to make a few pennies and for the enjoyment.

Again though. 2 pages. Sorry if this is late or whatever.
Blogger Paul Eres said at 11/14/2007 04:49:00 PM:  
It's not really the size of an indie project that makes it exciting. You can't really expect people to get excited about it based on it being "big".

Also, only when an author is established and has made a lot of good games does the game that he or she is currently working on draw any attention, people who haven't ever released a game don't get that effect. And that's natural.